Transcript
AMY: We are in our basement studios, and I am now having my lunch.
ALEXA: See, this is the type of content that I feel like is going to get us more listeners, Amy.
AMY: I know it's super exciting, right? But, let me run down the list of what I am having. It is really good. I鈥檝e got a non-GMO spinach salad with some non-GMO tomatoes, I got some non-GMO olive oil on it and sometimes I put a little non-GMO salt on it too.
ALEXA: GMOs OMG.
AMY: Right? I mean, people are afraid of GMOs. Before we launched this project, how much did you know about GMOs?
ALEXA: Honestly, it's pretty embarrassing, I barely knew anything at all. Now that I know what I know, I know I knew nothing.
AMY: Right, well I knew it stood for genetically modified organisms, but I wasn鈥檛 really clear on the science either. Although I was not afraid of it, necessarily.
ALEXA: But people avoid them anyways.
AMY: Yeah, I know, like those people we talked to at the Farmer鈥檚 Market in Sacramento.
AMY: Every Sunday, it鈥檚 packed with people and produce from all over California. You can buy organic food here, you can by conventional, or you can just listen to this guy play the cello. But we came here on this Sunday to find out what people really know about their food and the term 鈥淕MO".
(AMY: What is a GMO to you?
SHOPPER 1: Um, I鈥檓 not sure.
AMY: If you don鈥檛 know the answer, you would not be alone.
SHOPPER 1: Yeah, exactly, genetically modified, I think that means, I don鈥檛 really know what that means.
SHOPPER 2: Obviously, non-GMO environmentally is a lot better choice to not have those genetically modified crops. They鈥檙e having a huge environmental impact and so choosing a product that鈥檚 using more sustainable ingredients is always a better choice.
SHOPPER 3: I never buy GMO.
AMY: So what鈥檚 the hesitancy with GMO?
SHOPPER 3: It interferes with my and my kids immune systems, it ruins their immune systems. it weakens it.)
AMY: It weakens your immune system? See how scary GMOs sound?
ALEXA: So that鈥檚 why you鈥檙e eating a non-GMO salad?
AMY: Nope. But I have to say I was wondering if I had something wrong about GMOs. Then I found this guy.
JOHN: I鈥檓 John Perry.
AMY: And he鈥檚 a Sacramento farmer.
AMY: So what do you farm?
JOHN: On the fresh market- vegetables, tomatoes, corn, kiwi, some fruit, pumpkins- on the commercial side- rice, wheat, safflower and sunflower.
AMY: I love California. Where else can you grow corn, rice and kiwi?
AMY: Is your corn GMO corn?
JOHN: No GMO. In fact, our entire ranch is non-GMO, and it鈥檚 kind of marketing. To me there鈥檚 nothing wrong with GMO products. But people have a perception that there is something, so we keep our farm entirely non-GMO. All GMO is, is a higher level of sophistication of plant breeding.
AMY: So we鈥檝e got a farmer telling us it鈥檚 a way of breeding plants, then we鈥檝e got consumers telling us it鈥檚 bad for the environment and we鈥檝e got others telling us GMOs can interfere with our immune systems.
ALEXA: Which is why we鈥檙e calling this episode of Unfold, GMO OMG.
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AMY: Raoul Adamchak is taking me on a tour of the 不良研究所 student farm on this windy day.
RAOUL: We are in the market garden at the student farm looking out over some eggplant and basil and some peppers covered with some shade cloth.
AMY: Raoul runs this farm and all the food growing here is organic.
RAOUL: We鈥檙e going to see if we can find some eggplants for dinner.
AMY: Tonight, this organic farmer is having dinner with a plant geneticist, who also happens to be his wife.
PAM: My name is Pam Ronald. I鈥檓 a professor in the department of plant pathology in the Genome Center.
AMY: I felt like starting this story: 鈥淎 plant geneticist and an organic farmer walk into a garden.鈥 You know, the arguments begin. It just seems like they can鈥檛 be part of the same team. After all, organic farmers can鈥檛 use GMOs. Not Allowed. And geneticists spend their time in a lab genetically engineering plants, right? Pam and Raoul say nonsense.
PAM: Every farmer needs plant genetics. And plant geneticists wouldn鈥檛 have a job without farmers.
AMY: The couple even met on a farm- Raoul鈥檚, which happened to be next to a river.
RAOUL: I was trying to teach Pam鈥檚 friend how to roll a kayak. And that didn鈥檛 go that well. But we went up and went for a hike and looked at flowers.
AMY: Did you bond over the flowers?
RAOUL: We actually conversations about plants and about farming.
PAM: Plants and farming and kayaking and that鈥檚 still what we talk about.
RAOUL: That鈥檚 all we talk about now.
AMY: Pam and Raoul say they share the same goal- find more sustainable ways to grow food. And for Pam that entailed developing a rice that helps prevent poor farmers from losing their crops to flooding.
RAOUL: The farming practices that organic farmers use can help make agriculture more sustainable, and the work that Pam does on genetically improving crops can also make farming more sustainable.
AMY: Pam and Raoul are harvesting their dinner, looking for some of the last eggplants of the season.
RAOUL: There鈥檚 one, it鈥檚 a small one, but there鈥檚 still one.
AMY: The eggplants they鈥檙e picking are organic. So no synthetic fertilizers or pesticides are used.
RAOUL: They missed a couple of big eggplants. Why don鈥檛 you go over there and grab some of those?
PAM: I鈥檒l take some back to my mother tonight.
AMY: The eggplants are also non-GMO. But Pam says that term is scientifically meaningless.
PAM: Everything we eat has been genetically improved using some method, everything has been developed through artificial selection.
AMY: Take classical plant breeding, for example. That鈥檚 when breeders artificially select the best genetic traits in similar plant species. Breeders can also cross related plants that wouldn鈥檛 normally reproduce in nature to create new genetic variations that never existed before. Then there are scarier sounding breeding techniques.
PAM: Some of the crops out here were developed using chemical mutagenesis or types of irradiation.
AMY: Chemical mutagenesis means exposing plant seeds to chemicals and irradiation mutagenesis means exposing them to X-Rays or Gamma Rays. Both techniques create random mutations in the DNA. More than 3,000 crops have been developed this way- including wheat, rice and Ruby Red Grapefruit. The breeding technique has been around for 70 years and you鈥檝e likely eaten some, even in the organic aisle.
PAM: For people in agriculture, they鈥檙e not really new ideas but I think as fewer and fewer people farm and more and more people live in cities these old ideas are surprising to a lot of people.
AMY: SO, what consumers refer to as a GMO is a plant that鈥檚 been genetically engineered.
PAM: That鈥檚 taking a gene from one species, for example, a bacteria, and putting it directly into a crop.
Amy: Now that may sound scary, but this form of genetic engineering is no more risky than mutant breeding. Raoul says it鈥檚 the next logical step after breeding different varieties of plants.
RAOUL: There may be traits that you want that aren鈥檛 in those varieties or in any of the species that you鈥檙e working with. If you want a trait in corn, that kills the corn earworm, you鈥檙e not going to find that within the plant, so you have to go outside of it.
AMY: Genetically engineered corn uses a bacterium that kills the earworm, it鈥檚 called Bt corn. Most genetically engineered crops in the U.S. are designed to kill pests or tolerate herbicides. If you spray the weed-killer 鈥淩oundUp鈥 on genetically engineered 鈥淩oundUp ready鈥 corn, the weeds die, but the corn survives. Genetic engineering also prevents disease in plants. Pam鈥檚 favorite example is the papaya.
PAM: Something like 90 percent of Hawaiian papaya is genetically engineered to be resistant to a very devastating viral disease and it carries a snippet of the viral genome.
AMY: The disease would have put most, if not all, papaya growers out of business. Besides corn and papaya, there are only eight other genetically engineered crops on the U.S. market. That may be hard to believe given all the non-GMO labels you see.
RAOUL: People are putting the non-GMO label on products that there are no GMO examples of like salt or olive oil or water.
AMY: Water? Really? The other genetically engineered crops include cotton, alfalfa, canola, sugar beets, soybeans, squash, and most recently a disease-resistant potato and a non-browning apple.
RAOUL: For the vast range of all other foods to have a non-GMO label is a joke.
AMY: Here鈥檚 the other thing. There is scientific consensus that genetically engineered crops pose no health risks to humans. Some argue, it could improve health. Take golden rice, for example. It鈥檚 been engineered with genes from corn and a commonly ingested soil bacterium to produce more beta-carotene. It would give children in developing countries more vitamin A. So why do we care about vitamin A?
PAM: It鈥檚 estimated that 500,000 children go blind every year because of a lack of vitamin A and half of those children will die.
AMY: But golden rice isn鈥檛 yet being grown by farmers, partly because of the lengthy regulatory reviews required for genetically engineered crops. Only field trials have been conducted and only in the Philippines and Bangladesh.
AMY: Pam and Raoul step inside a shed and begin to bag their organic eggplants. We鈥檙e about to wrap up the interview, but something is bugging me. I mean, if all this is true about GMOs or genetic engineering- why are so many consumers opposed to GMOs? Pam says the non-GMO label hasn鈥檛 helped.
PAM: We鈥檙e all very susceptible to being influenced when someone tells us something scary and if we could just buy this or pay a little more money maybe we won鈥檛 have any risk and not really understanding that it鈥檚 no more risky than other types of food.
AMY: Raoul says no crop is risk free. For example, some earworms have developed resistance to genetically engineered Bt corn and weeds are beginning to develop resistance to herbicides sprayed on genetically engineered RoundUp ready crops. But Raoul says sustainable farming methods might have helped prevent that.
RAOUL: It would have been fairly easy to devise a strategy of either crop rotation or herbicide rotation that would have either prevented or greatly reduced the development of resistant weeds. I think it would have been more sustainable in the long run.
AMY: Raoul and Pam say ultimately, the debate over GMO crops is a misguided conversation.
PAM: I think discussions about the way the genes are moved in and out of crop plants are really a distraction of this huge challenge we have of how to feed a growing population without further destroying the environment. How can we reduce food waste and how can we really grow food in an ecologically-based manner?
RAOUL: In the grand scheme of things I think it鈥檚 going to turn out that genetic engineering of crops isn鈥檛 the big issue. The big issue is dealing with climate change. The big issue is dealing with an increasing population. Everyone should be trying to find solutions for the bigger picture.
ALEXA: It really sounds like consumers are much more concerned about the safety of GMO crops than scientists are.
AMY: Yeah.
ALEXA: So how do you suggest getting around such a huge debate?
AMY: Well I asked Pam that, and she said our focus should be on the principles that most people agree on.
PAM: We need to use land and water much more efficiently. We need to reduce applications of toxic compounds. We need to be sure the poor are well-nourished and we need to be sure farmers can make a living and we need to be sure that people can afford the food.
ALEXA: That actually makes a lot of sense. And don鈥檛 they have a book about that?
AMY: They do! Should we give it a plug? It鈥檚 called Tomorrow鈥檚 Table: Organic Farming, Genetics, and the Future of Food.
ALEXA: So I guess you鈥檙e eating a non-GMO salad because they don鈥檛 make a GMO salad?
AMY: Yes! But I wouldn鈥檛 hesitate to eat a GMO-salad if they did make one, or an organic salad, which by the way, this may be. I think it is. I dunno.
ALEXA: Well don鈥檛 throw away any of it away, because I鈥檒l eat it, if you don鈥檛 want it.
AMY: I鈥檓 going to eat every last bit, then I鈥檓 going to recycle the plastic container or maybe it鈥檚 compostable. Anyway, no food waste here.
ALEXA: Well speaking of which, next time on Unfold, we look at how reducing food waste may help feed a growing population.
AMY: Thanks for listening.
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